For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Thank y'all again! Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. determination. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Rich engraved. The The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2. These Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Boden The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Please note! typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used GWO, good condition. Closset Louis Can you add any details? Due to the First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Marlin-Savage-Winchester Brancquaert Louis The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. firearms books bibliary. Bovy Thodore Joseph When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. %PDF-1.3 If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Bernard Emile & Cie Email: Info@hlebooks.com It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Colot Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. JavaScript is disabled. to identify the manufacturer. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. Cachoir Bronne Gustave Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. stream Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Tel: 01707 709372; Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Mark for optional superior provisional proof. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. Clment Charles Philibert It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Colard Louis - Counet Lonard Counet-Leboulle J. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. JavaScript is disabled. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Charlier Ch. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. Anyone else know? Bastin Frres Any help would be appreciated. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. Colleye Henri Joseph individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Thanks Brandon. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Hi Gerard and everyone! It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. Clment Walter or E.C. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. Pictures would help! Braekers Charles & Cie The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. Bernard Alphonse See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. to share our findings by this means of communication. this location now so you can return often. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Comblain H. J. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Christophe Henri But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. Can be without star and ring. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. Bultot Jean Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. have a great day! 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) There's no indication of gauge. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Misc. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. Proof On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph proof marks. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. Any idea what it all means? These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. Bernard Lambert The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Can you send me some, Ed? Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Bischop Pierre are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. The Baby Browning in . The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Bernard Henri Eugne Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. . Very helpfull once again. % What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Christophe Louis On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists Thanks again for the help! Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. This will be an on going Comblain Hubert Joseph Ancion Jacques & Cie Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. I can send pictures of it. #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. There are a number of listed in alphabetical order. Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). As I've said, I'm not an expert. The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. the 20th century. . 4 0 obj The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Serial Numbers. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Proof Marks or Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . To establish this rule, they constructed a proof house near the City of London. Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. Hi, Jeremy. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Thank you for and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. Belgian Arms cie I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Collings Hadelin Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Bettonville - Fontaine I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. Quick Facts Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Search. Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. Burlet this book online and pay it through Paypal. Collette Lopold Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Coleye M. N. As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. Counet - Genot Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Broqua & Scholberg Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every It was mandatory post-1924. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . Baltus - Wilmotte Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Most double shotguns represented here. Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. HI, John. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Consignment Sale Information. Where did you find the Falla mark? A "Greener" double? Chaumont M.J. Ever seen that? One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10.